Investigations into Socket 939 Athlon 64 Overclocking
by Jarred Walton on October 3, 2005 4:35 PM EST- Posted in
- CPUs
BIOS Settings
Once everything is working properly and you're sure that the PC doesn't have any problems, it's time to approach the actual process of overclocking. You might want to give the PC a few days of heavy use (system burn-in) just to be sure that it's stable. All of the FutureMark benchmarking utilities are a good start for stress testing a system, and if you buy the registered versions, you can set them to loop continually - at least, the 3DMark versions can be looped; a quick batch file will get the PCMark applications to loop as well. If you can loop 3DMark03/05 and PCMark04/05 for several days, you can be relatively sure that the computer is running stable. We'll use that same approach later to stress test our overclocked configurations.
Here's where things get more complex, and virtually every motherboard BIOS is going to be at least slightly different from what we present here. If you have a socket 939 motherboard, you'll need to refer to its manual (or figure out where the settings are on your own), but most of the names and/or values will be similar to what DFI uses. The key areas that will need adjustment for overclocking are the CPU bus speed, CPU multiplier, HyperTransport (HT) multiplier, memory speed, memory timings, and voltages for RAM, CPU, chipset, etc. Let's cover each of these quickly to explain the process. We'll include BIOS images from our particular motherboard, so you can look for the matching setting in whatever board you're using.
The CPU bus speed is also referred to by other names. The DFI board labels it "CPU Frequency", while you may find HyperTransport Frequency in many BIOSes. (Some people will also call it the "Front Side Bus speed", which is not technically correct.) CPU Frequency, CPU Bus, HT Bus, etc. all mean the same thing, as the CPU communicates over an HT bus. Along with the CPU multiplier, there is also a HT multiplier (also called LDT - Lightning Data Transport - multiplier in some BIOSes). Most socket 939 motherboards support a 1000MHz HT speed, which is a 5X HT multiplier with a 200MHz base clock. The HyperTransport bus is sensitive to overclocking, so we need to keep its total speed in check. You may be able to run the HT bus at over 1000 MHz, but depending on motherboard and cooling, you will begin to have problems beyond a certain point. We'll keep our HT bus speed at or below 1050MHz by adjusting the HT multiplier as we increase the CPU bus speed (and we may at times drop lower if that brings stability). We can use the 4X multiplier with up to a 260MHz bus, and 3X will get us up to a 350MHz CPU bus (which is more than what most people are likely to reach, and more than what we'll test in this particular article). It is also possible to adjust the width of the HT bus from 16-bits up and down to 8-bits, but rarely does that help stabilize an overclock, so we'll leave it at 16/16.
We've covered the CPU and HT speed adjustments, but there's more to it than simply picking a target clock speed. In order to reach a stable overclock, you will often need additional voltage to the CPU and chipset - which affects the CPU speed and HT bus speed respectively. The default voltage of our Venice chip is 1.300V, but we will definitely increase the voltage as we go beyond a 10% overclock. Extreme overclocking (with liquid Nitrogen or phase change cooling) might go so far as to double the CPU voltages, but on air cooling that would be disastrous (not to mention few if any motherboards would even support that in the first place). We'll report the voltages required for each setting later on, but there are really two voltages: what we set in the BIOS, and what we actually get from the system. They may or may not be the same.
Something else that you should disable while in the BIOS is the Cool 'n Quiet feature of the Athlon 64. As that alters CPU voltage and multipliers dynamically in response to demand, it doesn't usually agree with overclocking. We also disable video and BIOS caching, as those are more relics of the DOS era than useful features (as far as we're aware). If you're interested in seeing the default settings that we used on the remaining BIOS screens, we have all the BIOS screens available for download in a Zip file.
Once everything is working properly and you're sure that the PC doesn't have any problems, it's time to approach the actual process of overclocking. You might want to give the PC a few days of heavy use (system burn-in) just to be sure that it's stable. All of the FutureMark benchmarking utilities are a good start for stress testing a system, and if you buy the registered versions, you can set them to loop continually - at least, the 3DMark versions can be looped; a quick batch file will get the PCMark applications to loop as well. If you can loop 3DMark03/05 and PCMark04/05 for several days, you can be relatively sure that the computer is running stable. We'll use that same approach later to stress test our overclocked configurations.
Here's where things get more complex, and virtually every motherboard BIOS is going to be at least slightly different from what we present here. If you have a socket 939 motherboard, you'll need to refer to its manual (or figure out where the settings are on your own), but most of the names and/or values will be similar to what DFI uses. The key areas that will need adjustment for overclocking are the CPU bus speed, CPU multiplier, HyperTransport (HT) multiplier, memory speed, memory timings, and voltages for RAM, CPU, chipset, etc. Let's cover each of these quickly to explain the process. We'll include BIOS images from our particular motherboard, so you can look for the matching setting in whatever board you're using.
Click to enlarge.
The CPU bus speed is also referred to by other names. The DFI board labels it "CPU Frequency", while you may find HyperTransport Frequency in many BIOSes. (Some people will also call it the "Front Side Bus speed", which is not technically correct.) CPU Frequency, CPU Bus, HT Bus, etc. all mean the same thing, as the CPU communicates over an HT bus. Along with the CPU multiplier, there is also a HT multiplier (also called LDT - Lightning Data Transport - multiplier in some BIOSes). Most socket 939 motherboards support a 1000MHz HT speed, which is a 5X HT multiplier with a 200MHz base clock. The HyperTransport bus is sensitive to overclocking, so we need to keep its total speed in check. You may be able to run the HT bus at over 1000 MHz, but depending on motherboard and cooling, you will begin to have problems beyond a certain point. We'll keep our HT bus speed at or below 1050MHz by adjusting the HT multiplier as we increase the CPU bus speed (and we may at times drop lower if that brings stability). We can use the 4X multiplier with up to a 260MHz bus, and 3X will get us up to a 350MHz CPU bus (which is more than what most people are likely to reach, and more than what we'll test in this particular article). It is also possible to adjust the width of the HT bus from 16-bits up and down to 8-bits, but rarely does that help stabilize an overclock, so we'll leave it at 16/16.
We've covered the CPU and HT speed adjustments, but there's more to it than simply picking a target clock speed. In order to reach a stable overclock, you will often need additional voltage to the CPU and chipset - which affects the CPU speed and HT bus speed respectively. The default voltage of our Venice chip is 1.300V, but we will definitely increase the voltage as we go beyond a 10% overclock. Extreme overclocking (with liquid Nitrogen or phase change cooling) might go so far as to double the CPU voltages, but on air cooling that would be disastrous (not to mention few if any motherboards would even support that in the first place). We'll report the voltages required for each setting later on, but there are really two voltages: what we set in the BIOS, and what we actually get from the system. They may or may not be the same.
Something else that you should disable while in the BIOS is the Cool 'n Quiet feature of the Athlon 64. As that alters CPU voltage and multipliers dynamically in response to demand, it doesn't usually agree with overclocking. We also disable video and BIOS caching, as those are more relics of the DOS era than useful features (as far as we're aware). If you're interested in seeing the default settings that we used on the remaining BIOS screens, we have all the BIOS screens available for download in a Zip file.
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Crassus - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
First of all, thank you for such a long article. I appreciate the work you put into this. What I'd really like to see in one of the planned articles would be an in-depth coverage of the options an enthusiast-grade mainboard BIOS offers nowadays for the RAM timings (and maybe PCIe) - beyond the standard timings covered in this article.PrinceGaz - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
The finer memory-timings offered by enthusiast mobos are generally vendor specific so your best bet is to check a forum or other site dedicated to your motherboard. For DFI mobos for instance, you can find a thread which gives detailed coverage of memory settings on DFI-Street forums http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2...">hereCheesePoofs - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
Why stability test with 3dmark (an app that tries to stress teh CPU as little as possible) and pcmark (an ok pc-stressing app) instead of the combo of memtest86+, superpi, and prime95? Seems to me that if you want to find out whether yoru CPU really is stable, you'd want to stress it as hard as possible (which those three will do).Also, from what I've read from Zebo's thread in the CPU forums, 2T really doesn't have a significant impact on performance. Could you clarify this?
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
I've seen systems that run Prime95 and SuperPi 100% stable crash under 3DMark looping, as well as under PCMark. I imagine 2.80 GHz will crash under those if I run them all concurrently. My personal experience is that SuperPi and Prime95 only stress a few paths of the CPU, hence the inclusion of benchmarks with 11 different applications that can all fail with an unstable overclock. 3DMark GPU tests are not as demanding of the CPU, but the CPU tests are very demanding IMO. (That's part of why the top scores on the 3DMark ORB never include the CPU tests.)2T command rate, as you can see in quite a few instances, really killed performance. Perhaps tweaking other special timings beyond CL, tRCD, tRP, and tRAS might make the impact less, but you could likely tweak the same things with 1T at a lower memory speed. Command rate comes into play on every single memory access, so doubling that delay will certainly have an impact on performance.
fitten - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
Good answer. Most have no clue as to how a CPU actually works. Ideally, a synchronous circuit is rated at a clock speed that the longest path will function properly (give correct results). There may be 1000s of pathways that can run at higher frequencies but that one can hold it back. Running the clock rate up may cause that one pathway not to be able to meet something like a data setup and hold time on one line (of the 32 or 64) in the data path and now you have an unstable setup that you may not detect. As always with overclocking, a crash is the best result you can get because you know you've pushed too far. Unless you are testing pretty much every instruction with every possible data against a control to compare against (some pathways can take longer depending on the data that it is being operated on), there are many errors that you may not detect... and all it takes is one, out of the possible billions, to make your machine not stable. Sure, it may be a rarely seen case of instruction+data but it exists.Programs like the Pi calculators and such do make your CPU work a lot, but the calculations are fairly repetitive and hardly a broad sample of the ISA.
I'm all for doing whatever you want with your own machine. Heck, I used to overclock all the time, too. I just find all of the lack of knowledge in synchronous circuits... interesting... when people talk about overclocking.
Saist - Monday, October 3, 2005 - link
for those who read this portion here :****
Because of the GPU limitation, we're going to be testing at 640x480, 800x600, and 1024x768. We'll also test many of the titles with 4xAA enabled, which should serve as a reality check. Even with a super fast CPU, many games are going to be completely GPU limited with the X800 Pro when we run 4xAA, especially at resolutions 1024x768 and above. Frankly, we wouldn't bother enabling 4xAA unless you can at least reach 1024x768 anyway.
****
Did anyone else think... okay.. lets stick a Radeon 9600, GeforceFX, or XGI Volari in there so that we actually will be limited? I mean... please. X800 alone goes above what most users have in their systems today. If we are buying "new" components, then yeah, the X800 is on my short list, but how about doing some reviews over hardware people actually have in their hands.
OvErHeAtInG - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
If you're overclocking a new A64 Venice... somehow I think you're not still running your XGI Volari for games. Remember bench numbers are really only useful if they reflect framerates you would actually want to play with.JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
The reason I used an X800 Pro is because I feel it's a good match for the chip, RAM, and motherboard. I can toss in a 7800GTX to show what the CPU on its own is capable of, but you can get cards that pretty much equal the X800 Pro for under $200. X800 GTO and GTO2 can match and even beat the X800 Pro.I view overclocking (and computer building in general) from a bang-for-the-buck perspective. It doesn't make sense to me to spend $100 upgrading from the 3000+ to the 3500+ if I'm going to be completely GPU limited. $200 on a graphics card is not that much money, when you really get down to it. 180 million transistor chip with 256MB of 980MHz RAM, all mounted on a large PCB? At least I can feel I'm getting a lot of stuff for $200. A CPU is far cheaper to produce (though more expensive to design). Profit margins on CPUs are notoriously high.... Personally, the X800 Pro is a decent card, but I really want something faster these days. Same goes for the 6800GT. But then, not everyone feels that way.
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Thought #2 (for Saist): If X800 is above what most people have, other than those buying new computers... well, what about the motherboard and processor? Socket 939 with nForce4 is a more recent configuration than X800/6800 cards. Not to mention Venice has only been out for something like 8 months.
If you're looking to spend $120+ on a new Venice chip and you've only got a 9600 Pro (or even a 9800 Pro), you're wasting your money on the wrong part (at least from a gaming perspective). A socket 754 Sempron with an X800 Pro would be far better for gaming than a Venice core with anything less than an X800/6800. Outside of gaming... well, graphics don't matter outside of gaming much, which is why Winstones, PCMark, and AutoGK are included.
Honestly, I'm not entirely sure if you were complaining about the use of a GPU that was too fast, or that it wasn't fast enough. For frequent gaming, I wouldn't recommend anyone go lower than about the X800 GTO these days. 6600GT is (IMO) now relegated to the budget/moderate-gaming setup, as many games are simply unplayable above 1024x768. I really don't like to drop below 1280x1024/1280x960 if I can avoid it. If I've misunderstood your complaint, let me know; if we simply have a difference of opinion... well, there's not much to do about that. :)
yanman - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
any chance you can add in benches for 7800GT/GTX? after all, in your discussion you correctly asset that money is much better spent on high spec'd GPU to match the cpu speed that you've managed to overclock to - having used bargain rate ram and venice.i have a venice 3000+ clocked at 2686mhz, 7800gt and 2x1gb sticks of average ram (legend/hynix). until i upgraded the ram a few weeks ago i had it running for prehaps a month and a half totally solid with 2x512mb sticks of same type, at 2696mhz (337x8, ram at 225mhz (2:3) 2.5-3-4-7-1T)
the reason i ask for 7800GT and GTX is 2 fold, so we can see it from an nvidia side too (different cpu scaling maybe?), and also to show the scaling for a top-end card even if only as a reference point. It just seems a bit one-dimensional only using 1 card.
One last thing, well done to Zebo who made the excellent "Quick and dirty A64 overclocking guide" (used to be sticky in the forums) which I and many people I know used to overclock their venices with.. i'd be stuck without it!
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
I'm planning on doing 7800GTX testing with an X2 3800+ OC article. For gaming, it will perform identically to the 3200+ Venice. Hopefully, I'll be done in the next ~week or so.